castlecrash: Yo.
castlecrash: Are you occupied?
castlecrash: If you are AFK, let me know when you get back online. I'll be waiting.
MochaKimono: Hi
MochaKimono: I'm just reading webcomics
castlecrash: Oh. Okay.
castlecrash: I've been thinking a bit. I was going to save this for a face to face, but I figured, what the hell.
castlecrash: Refresh my memory: why do you want to break up with me again?
castlecrash: (Btw, just finished Last Days of Foxhound.)
MochaKimono: okay...
castlecrash: You connection or mine may be a little laggy. That, or you are choosing your words carefully. Either one is understandable.
castlecrash: That would be YOUR, not you.
castlecrash: dammit
MochaKimono: Well, when we first started going out, I did feel very positively emotional about it...But sometimes with me, I feel more strongly about something (or someone) than is...uh...I guess I mean, sometimes my enthusiasm is more severe than sincere at first. Which is why I usually dwell on my thoughts for months, so that I can let my strong initial emotions subside before I take action on them, in case I was mistaken (usually when I'm angry, so I just wait until I'm less so, before I speak about it, if at all. Same for any other feeling.)
MochaKimono: But I was too hasty in deciding to date you, because I decided to ignore the possibility that I wasn't going to feel as strongly after some time had passed.
castlecrash: That's normal. Believe it or not.
MochaKimono: And as it turns out, it did ebb away.
MochaKimono: ah
MochaKimono: Well. Normally my decisions about anything take months or years...
castlecrash: I'm not sure what you saw in me initially, but the fact of the matter is you have obviously gotten used to it.
MochaKimono: Really what it boils down to is that...I just don't love you, and I know it's not an emotion I'll just grow into or 'make happen'. Any affection I have for you will always be strictly platonic.
MochaKimono: So once I realized that, I knew it would just be deceptive to stay in a romantic relationship, when I don't really feel romantically.
castlecrash: So, let me see if I'm following this:
castlecrash: We start out friends.
castlecrash: I'm content with said arrangement, simply because my ego has been crushed by years of rejection, and I presume that you will deliver another one.
castlecrash: Then you inform me you would be interested in a romantic relationship.
castlecrash: I actually gave thanks to God at that moment.
castlecrash: A month or two passes.
castlecrash: "Let's just be friends."
castlecrash: Heartbreak ensues.
castlecrash: ...That cover it?
MochaKimono: I'm not going to be comfortable in this conversation if you're going to TRY to make me feel bad about not falling in love with you.
castlecrash: I'm not trying to make you uncomfortable. I'm telling you the truth. Nothing more.
castlecrash: I'm only talking to you, because I'm wondering if there is something I'm not seeing that I should be.
MochaKimono: Alright. I understand how much it hurts to be broken up with by someone one cares for very deeply, but I can't be objective about it when I'm the one that did the breaking up. :/ You should know that I'm probably the last person in the world right now that you can spill out your feelings about this.
castlecrash: So, I should talk about this to, whom? Someone this has absolutely no bearing on/
MochaKimono: There's a difference between talking, and telling me that heartbreak ensued.
castlecrash: Well, what should I tell you? It's all happy fun time?
MochaKimono: I don't want to have it turn into an argument, or anything that'd be a detriment to the friendship we already had.
MochaKimono: You know I have a policy against dishonesty, so no.
castlecrash: An arguement would actually have been constructive, believe it or not. That, too, is normal.
MochaKimono: But you also know that for me to be someone's girlfriend without loving them is dishonest and the longer such a lopsided relationship is carried on, the more painful it is in the end, because such things inevitably break apart. And more time only means a worse breaking.
castlecrash: Uh, that's the question. What did you see in me in the first place?
MochaKimono: Someone who's moral.
castlecrash: And I ceased being that?
MochaKimono: no
MochaKimono: I used present-tense
MochaKimono: But just because someone is a good person, doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to develop more than a very basic affection for them. :/
MochaKimono: We can't control these things. Who we love or who we don't.
castlecrash: I certainly can these days.
MochaKimono: Really, it just couldn't have been carried on. I wasn't going to grow a feeling that wasn't really there. I thought it was at first, at least enough to be something I could foster into a bigger feeling, but...
MochaKimono: Anyway, if I didn't think you were moral, I wouldn't want to be your friend either. I don't even associate with people I consider too debase. But being associable and someone I really like as a person and as a friend doesn't necessarily add up to more than that.
castlecrash: So, I'm expected to be cool if you decide to, say, date someone else.
castlecrash: As rude as that sounds, it is a possiblity that should be considered.
MochaKimono: I'm not interested in anybody else right now.
MochaKimono: And if I was, it wouldn't be your place to veto it anyway, if that's what you're getting at.
castlecrash: I know that.
MochaKimono: If I even WAS interested in someone right now, I'd ignore the notion for fear of it just being a rebound, anyway.
castlecrash: The second part, at least.
castlecrash: And you've eliminated one possibility of my side of board. So, this talk hasn't been a total waste of time.
MochaKimono: And I don't expect you to be happy if I did date someone else, because, well, it wouldn't be something that'd make you happy, I guess. I really have no idea why you mentioned that, to be honest. If it happens, it happens, and it'd hurt.
MochaKimono: Did you think I was practicing infidelity?
castlecrash: Infidelity? Please. I know you better than that.
MochaKimono: okay, just making sure...
castlecrash: But my experience taught me that "Let's just be friends" is a way of saying "Go away, loser."
MochaKimono: no
MochaKimono: Like I said, I prefer honesty
MochaKimono: If I didn't want to be friends with you, I wouldn't say I wanted to be friends with you
castlecrash: The only question on my mind has naturally been, why would this be the case? So, in a messed up way, this is a rather relieving conversation. Even though I can't gauge your face, I believe you.
castlecrash: That's enough for me on that level.
MochaKimono: Really, I just liked it better when we were still friends, before it turned into anything else. I just don't like that added dynamic in general, I suppose. I'm content with just hanging out with people and being close to them without being romantic with them...
MochaKimono: I don't understand your question o.o why would what be what case?
castlecrash: I'm just trying to figure out what to do next. I can convert love to hate. That's easy for me.
MochaKimono: I still have no idea what you asked me
castlecrash: Oh, I was referring to why you would what me to get out of your life. That presumption has been eliminated.
MochaKimono: and if you decided to hate me, I'd be...extremely sad
castlecrash: Want me to get...etc.
castlecrash: I'm aware of that.
MochaKimono: oh...no...I really only reserve "wanting to get people out of my life" if they've actively done something WRONG, like, really really immoral, or if they just have a vile attitude in general
castlecrash: Here's the thing. I'm trying to recalculate several plans, because more than a few of them have been disrupted.
MochaKimono: Normally I try to be pretty forgiving about that anyway, but there have been a few people in my life that are just horrible...But you're not a bad person at all, so that was never a thought to me, of avoidance
castlecrash: I don't want to hate you, but beyond that, you earlier statement regarding who we love remains true. Hell, maybe for me it always has, and I've just insisted on denial...
castlecrash: So, I can't convert my love for you into hatred. Which is an intensely frustrating situation for me right now.
castlecrash: I'm not used to this being a problem.
MochaKimono: I...well, can't objectively reply to that, I guess
MochaKimono: also, brb, I really really have to use the bathroom
castlecrash: Take your time.
Auto Response from MochaKimono: I am away from my computer right now.
castlecrash went idle at 1:47:51 AM.
MochaKimono: back
MochaKimono: I also had two quotes occur to me, relating to what you just said
castlecrash returned at 1:52:49 AM.
castlecrash: Listening.
MochaKimono: One of them I forget who said it, I think it was John Steinbeck, who said, "You cannot truly hate a man if you can truly understand him." and the other is from Ender's Game, which is actually about war, but a character in it says, "In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
castlecrash: Err...not sure how either relate to you, the first I will tell you is patently false, and the second was a state of mind Ender was in just before he did, in fact, wipe his foe out.
MochaKimono: Why is the first false?
MochaKimono: The fact is that humans can't ever truly understand each other, anyway. So it's not really false. It's just not relevant to our capacities.
castlecrash: Because I can truly understand someone, know exactly why they are what they are, why they are doing what they are doing, and still kill them. Have I actually done it? To date, no.
castlecrash: Not the point.
MochaKimono: You can't. It takes God to truly understand someone. That's how he knows the future; he knows ephemeral humans as well as he knows the scientific Laws he made himself. Unless a human can successfully predict every action of another, then no, they don't TRULY understand them.
castlecrash: But I can be pretty harsh sometimes.
MochaKimono: Anyway, what I meant was, that's why you can't just convert love into hate, at least not about me, if you were sincere. It's not like emotion is a glass of water that you can change into gas or solid whenever you have the time.
MochaKimono: It's something that happens inside your mind, and whether you believe it's nothing but chemicals reacting in the brain, or some divine nature of the soul, it's still not something we can ever truly control.
castlecrash: I believe the core of my problem is simple: I'm afraid of returning to a lurker state. The guy always looking in, wondering if he should hold out in the event that she changes her mind.
MochaKimono: We are just playthings of what happens to us and how people interact with us. That's all.
MochaKimono: I'm not going to change my mind.
castlecrash: I know that. Dammit, I know that.
MochaKimono: okay, just making sure
MochaKimono: No need to curse at me about it.
castlecrash: Sorry.
castlecrash: Just a fear of mine.
MochaKimono: s'okay, I just don't want things to start escalating with profanities, it never goes anywhere good
MochaKimono: The thing is, even if we can't control how we feel, we can still control how we act
MochaKimono: I mean, have you heard of Stockholm Syndrome? It's where people in hostage situations get defensive of their kidnappers. But it really only happens to people not aware that it can happen. If you are aware of a syndrome, you can actively avoid it, even if your emotions don't want to.
castlecrash: I hardly classify you as a kidnapper.
MochaKimono: So if you're afraid of going into any state of being, that means you can just step away from it when you feel it coming on. Like the difference between closing your eyes in a fight and actually jumping away from a blow about to land.
castlecrash: But continue...
MochaKimono: I was not making an allegory in the slightest.
MochaKimono: I was referring to a syndrome having to do with emotions that people only ACT on if they're not aware it might happen to them. A condition prevented just by forethought.
castlecrash: So, I should have been more detached?
MochaKimono: What I am presently talking about is that if you're worried about falling into "lurker state", that means you have less cause TO worry, because it's something you can already recognize and avoid.
MochaKimono: We rarely go through the same phase twice, unless we have a weak will, or feel we have anything to gain from a bad phase.
castlecrash: That second is the problem. Hope is ever a powerful force with me. My greatest strength is one of my weaknesses as well.
MochaKimono: Hope's never a weakness when aimed correctly.
castlecrash: I suppose not. I suppose we can remain friends. So, what changes?
MochaKimono: Good hope is just the acknowledgement that your life can improve, or that it's good enough not to need to. It's why people continue to live at all, really.
MochaKimono: Bad hope is holding out for an impossibility or something that will hurt you. That's when it becomes a weakness: when it's no longer knowledge, but just fantasy.
MochaKimono: What changes is that we don't kiss and you don't spend the night.
MochaKimono: Normally I do let friends spend the night, but normally I've never dated any of my friends.
MochaKimono: So I'm afraid at least for now you can't sleep over anymore.
castlecrash: I'll miss both, but I can accept that.
MochaKimono: Okay.
castlecrash: There is still going to be a cooldown period for me. So yes, I might act a little weird.
MochaKimono: Yeah, it happens.
castlecrash: Besides, you have no idea what kind of effort typing this has taken from me.
MochaKimono: Just keep in mind something that helps me keep my temper: "Is what I'm about to say constructive to our friendship, or is it designed to hurt their feelings?"
MochaKimono: There are a lot of times with a lot of people I've had to ask myself that to keep from saying some really dreadful things.
castlecrash: In my case, thus far, neither. I've simply been gathering information, even if it is extrordinarily sensitive to all parties.
MochaKimono: Of course sometimes constructive things are still painful things. In which case, it can't be helped...But I just mean, MEAN things that exist just to evoke a negative emotion. Those are ones to watch out for.
castlecrash: I haven't fired one of those off thus far, have I?
MochaKimono: And you probably do have many of those mean things that show up in your thoughts when you're alone and not busy, thinking about conversations you've had and snark you could have used but didn't out of honor; everyone's got those words in their head, but it's when they come off the tongue when it matters.
castlecrash: In dealings with others, true.
MochaKimono: Well, the "I gave thanks to God"/"and heartbreak ensues" speech sounded less like an event summary and more like you wanted me to feel guilty, to be frank.
castlecrash: Again. Truth. That's how I honestly see it.
MochaKimono: Things that are true =/= Things you should actually say :p
MochaKimono: There's a difference between kind honesty and honesty designed to scour an ear canal...
castlecrash: I just didn't feel inclined to sugarcoat it like I normally would. So I'm willing to concede you have a point.
MochaKimono: Because I do feel bad that I've had to do something that causes pain, but I don't feel guilty that the relationship didn't work.
castlecrash: That was expected.
MochaKimono: I think also in the long run our philosophical differences would have destroyed us if we drew too close
castlecrash: How so?
castlecrash: In reference to philosophical differences.
MochaKimono: Your opinions are like a sharp-edged stone that has already been carved. It may weather and see the sun rise and set in periods, but the things on it don't change, and don't expect goodness to exist in dissimilar edicts. "This thing IS and that IS truth, what is not quite, is on the opposite side of truth entirely."
MochaKimono: It's why you have that urge to constantly "call bullshit" on my opinions :p Because they aren't necessarily true for your circumstances
castlecrash: I apply my circumstances to others as well, but continue.
castlecrash: And take their's into account.
castlecrash: (theirs)
MochaKimono: But for me, I see logic and emotions as indefinably intertwined; scientific and religious thought as merely synonymous co-dependent means of understanding life; love and subservience as the most important qualities and goals to ever have, but also not ever entirely attainable by anyone but God. I think any law that stands in the way of human wellbeing should immediately be bypassed, otherwise it is worthless and ungodly.
(Snipped: a long-ass discussion about government, politics, boring stuff like that. I know I said I'd keep this all preserved as much as possible but there are LIMITS and nobody wants to read this! If you really really need to then uh... mail me... and I'll send you missed? Basically Ed and I disagreed for hours about several key philosophical points I'll not bother to cover in detail as they are basically irrelevant.)MochaKimono: All you can do is act well enough that your examples influence others.
MochaKimono: And if you can influence anyone to be better, it's a success.
castlecrash: I've wondered about the echoes I send out. Will someone use those as a justification to oppress, or will they get the point of my philosophy? A lot of people have a habit of hearing what they want, and nothing else.
castlecrash: Hence why I'm glad we had this discussion.
MochaKimono: why?
castlecrash: Because I was literally ready to strip you of your visitation rights here if I believed what I was ready to believe.
castlecrash: I'd rather not do things that sweeping and rash.
castlecrash: Only my need to get to the heart of the matter stopped me.
castlecrash: Which, btw, I still have not reached, but I've gotten within eyesight of it. It will do for now.
MochaKimono: What heart of the matter do you mean? -_- I told you everything.
castlecrash: I know that. That's why I won't go any farther. Because it won't do me any good.
MochaKimono: I don't stay in relationships where my heart isn't in them. That's...all of it. There's really nothing more about it. You can reach and dig and try for some vaster deeper meaning, but...there's just nothing else to find.
castlecrash: I'm not searching for deeper meaning, and I never was.
MochaKimono: okay
MochaKimono: I am curious about "what you were ready to believe" was
castlecrash: Oh, I was simply going to presume a worst case scenerio: you simply having found someone else you were interested in, and having decided I didn't cut it compared to them. In short, your decision would have been interpreted as calculated.
castlecrash: In short, eliminate the hypotenuse.
castlecrash: Only without someone dying.
MochaKimono: I have no idea what your last two sentences are even referring to.
castlecrash: TVtrope. Murder the hypotenuse.
castlecrash: Shorthand: out with the old, in with the new.
castlecrash: You asked what I was ready to believe. There you go.
castlecrash: Anyhow. I'm going to get some sleep. I've got a bit to think about.
MochaKimono: okay
castlecrash: Good night, Jo.
MochaKimono: night
castlecrash signed off at 4:10:42 AM.
Ohh, there's a timestamp! Okay, so I guess I stayed online for a few hours longer that ni-- morning, and then emailed myself the log before signing off. See why I record this stuff? To make sure the subtle details don't elude me.Important details. Things I hope my parents never needed to show to the FBI because I went missing one day.
More to come, in easier to read email format, because I blocked him on AIM at some point. I think we had more conversations first maybe, because I don't think I was that angry in this conversation? More gaps in my memory, filled in only by what logs I've collected.
I'll also point out this all happened around my birthday, which was on the 21st.
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